Ratzinger and the Hitler Youth

[karohemd]

Some of you might have seen me explode on twitter yesterday and I wanted to put a slightly more elaborate explanation here:

I am not defending the Pope in any way because he has commited enough atrocities (mostly by inaction rather than action) but if you bring up Ratzinger's membership in the Hitler Youth you do the same to every single German male of his generation. I have no love for Ratzinger but I'm German and this hurts.
He was conscripted in 1941 when membership was not only already mandatory (since '36) but also enforced by police (since '39) so you or your parents didn't have a choice, you'd be taken by force if necessary.

To those who say he could have protested or refused, I say this:
Imagine you are 14 years old, the totalitarian regime of the Nazis has been in power for 8 years, so pretty much all your conscious life. There has been nothing but Nazi propaganda and doctrine in your school curriculum, the newspapers, the news reels at the cinema and on radio. Books that might provide alternative views have been banned or burned. Almost every week there's a classmate or at least schoolmate or maybe a neighbour missing because the parents had been Jews, communist sympathisers or because of any other made up accusation. Your cousin was taken away and "euthanised" because he suffered from a disability.
What would you do? Would you speak up and say no? No, you would tag along, keep your head down and participate as little as possible but enough so you don't draw attention and you bloody well hope they don't stick you into a tank and send you into the war. Remember, you are only 14.

Now if he was ten years older, had joined in the late twenties when it was set up, gone up through the ranks and then had a military career, you could have an argument.

Comments

[ulfilias.livejournal.com]

Is this public ??? Do you mind it being posted about ??? FWIW I fully agree.

[karohemd.livejournal.com]

Yes, this is public for this reason, feel free to link to it.

[edwards.livejournal.com]

Don't worry. Most people outside of reactionary "ew, establishment figure" internet commentators are fully aware of the context Ratzinger's "membership" of the organisation should be viewed in.

Whether you like the church, the pope or not, there's no point trying to make an argument without factual info.

Doesn't help that he looks like Palpatine from Star Wars though...

[karohemd.livejournal.com]

When one of those internet commentators is Ben Goldacre, I have my doubts. :/ To read it on his page (http://bengoldacre.posterous.com/nazi-youth-pope-aligns-atheists-with-nazis-bi) was what really set me off.

*nods*

Haha. That sort of thing I don't have a problem with.

[ginasketch.livejournal.com]

Doesn't help that he looks like Palpatine from Star Wars though...

lol

[pmoodie.livejournal.com]

Yup, it's pointless to hold that particular part of his past against him. But the old "Nazi" card is an easy one to play for people who don't want to look into things too deeply.

[karohemd.livejournal.com]

My problem is that it's a sweeping generalisation of all Germans.

[thedinster.livejournal.com]

I completely understand. Even though Soviet times were nowhere near as scary as Nazi times, my parents have grown up being brainwashed with propaganda, some people's parents had been locked away in jail for telling political jokes in Stalin times and everyone was forced into Communist youth groups and later the army... and had to swear oaths to the party in every day life. Plus, if your family weren't party members, you'd get disadvantaged in life and wouldn't even get proper medical care.

But on the plus side, both my mum and my dad know how to assemble, disassemble and use a Kalashnikov :p

[xambrius.livejournal.com]

I know how to use and maintain an AK (not that those wonderful rugged workhorses need much in the way of maintenance). I own one. :)

--
Tim Harris
The Seeker
Time Lord

[bateleur.livejournal.com]

I didn't actually know it was compulsory - thanks for the info!

[karohemd.livejournal.com]

It's rather sad how widespread this ignorance is. When even Ben Goldacre (who I consider one of the best informed and least insane "aggressive secularists") mentioned it last night, I lost my rag at him. :/
The Hitler Youth wasn't the Boy Scouts for the Nazi elite but a cunning way to build the army of the future. If WWII had gone on for another year or two, the majority of soldiers would have been teenagers...

[maviscruet.livejournal.com]

I've never thought his membership of the hitler youth was an issue.

That said - compairing Athiest to Nazi's was - well stupid at best.

[karohemd.livejournal.com]

It's being brought up again and again and when even intellectuals like Ben Goldacre do it, I can't sit still anymore.

Absolutely. As I said, I have no love for the pope.

[sea-cucumber.livejournal.com]

I remember posting something like this when he was first elected!

[karohemd.livejournal.com]

So did I. One would have thought people had learned by now.

[mr-malk.livejournal.com]

With you completely. I'm not the greatest fan of the Pope or the RC Church in general, but that sort of thoughtless cheap-shot helps no one. Sad that it does seem to be "Canard du jour" (as it were) in a few places.

[whiskeylover.livejournal.com]

I fully agree with the objection to the criticism of the Pope for his Hitler Youth past (What was that SUN headline on his election? "From Hitler Youth to Papa Ratzi"...).

Unlike many others, he even deserted the Hitler Youth when he had the chance- not without danger in itself.


I also disagree with the general (and generally uninformed) attacks on the Pope at the moment. For example he did not say that all atheists were Nazis, he pointed out the horrors that occurred when a tyrannical regime tried to exclude the concept of God from society. While that was clearly not the root cause of the horrors of Nazi atrocities, creating a society where there is no concept of any higher being to answer to does not necessarily help. While one might agree or disagree with that view, I think it is a bit of a stretch to construe it as an insult to all atheists.

As for the child abuse, there does not appear to be any foundation to claims that the Pope was actively involved even in the hushing up of any problems. Admittedly he did order investigations into allegations rather than immediately coming down in judgment on some of the accused, but he did push for the immediate suspension of the priests involved, while investigating further (in at least one case at a point when the police had already dropped a case).

One may disagree with the Pope's views on abortion and contraception, but the frenzied attempts to portray him as the antichrist really get on my nerves.

[zotz]

It's this idea that the Nazis were is some sense trying to "exclude the concept of God from society" that's at the heart of the problem.

Nazism was not an atheistic or godless movement. His view, that it's incompatible with Christianity as he knows it, is of course laudable, but too many senior Nazis regarded themselves as Christians (as well as there being a celebrated minority with mystical or occult beliefs) for yesterday's statement to be justifiable.

There were atheists too, of course (in spite of Hitler's claim to have "stamped atheism out"), but from my very limited reading they seem to have been a small number.

[davywavy.livejournal.com]

Thumbs up.

[the-lady-lily.livejournal.com]

Thank you for posting this.

[martinhesselius.livejournal.com]

Good post.
Will be linking this.

[eviltwinemma.livejournal.com]

Thank you. Put with more eloquence and calm than I could or would have (or was going to) post on the situation. I've linked to this.

[redshira.livejournal.com]

As I said to you on Twitter, I agree; he's done enough terrible things of his own volition that we don't need to be focusing on something he did as a boy, over which he had no choice. I'm always amazed when I come across people who don't know that Hitler Youth membership was mandatory, but having gone to Jewish schools I suppose I learned more about this sort of thing than a lot of people.

[trizia.livejournal.com]

Thank you. I've found myself defending him also, mainly because people aren't getting the facts right before they argue.

[ginasketch.livejournal.com]

Ozzy wasn't exactly defending him though.

[davywavy.livejournal.com]

I think that's an age thing; my dad was in the army of occupation after the war, and I've met a number of old soliders from the time. I've never had one say anything but good about the German people to me; they recognise very well the difference between the people and the machinery of state. However, it's very striking that the most vociferous 'Germans are Nazis' people one meets tend to be of my generation - people who grew up a generation or two after the war surrounded by the stories of it but with no direct personal exerience. I think that distancing and romanticising of it has led to some - I'll say this diplomaticaly - inaccurate beliefs.

[moomin-puffin.livejournal.com]

well said

[ginasketch.livejournal.com]

I've been mostly rolling my eyes at the people patting each other on the back and thinking that they're inconoclasts for NOT complaining about the pope.

But I 100% agree with you on this point.

There are enough bad points to bring up about the Prada wearing git without mentioning the Hitler Youth.

[skorpionuk.livejournal.com]

I'm catching up on my blog feeds today, and found this:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/09/an_embattled_pope.html
The early part mentions a point close to yours, and the rest may be of interest to you as well.

[karohemd.livejournal.com]

Thanks!