Ratzinger and the Hitler Youth

[karohemd]

Some of you might have seen me explode on twitter yesterday and I wanted to put a slightly more elaborate explanation here:

I am not defending the Pope in any way because he has commited enough atrocities (mostly by inaction rather than action) but if you bring up Ratzinger's membership in the Hitler Youth you do the same to every single German male of his generation. I have no love for Ratzinger but I'm German and this hurts.
He was conscripted in 1941 when membership was not only already mandatory (since '36) but also enforced by police (since '39) so you or your parents didn't have a choice, you'd be taken by force if necessary.

To those who say he could have protested or refused, I say this:
Imagine you are 14 years old, the totalitarian regime of the Nazis has been in power for 8 years, so pretty much all your conscious life. There has been nothing but Nazi propaganda and doctrine in your school curriculum, the newspapers, the news reels at the cinema and on radio. Books that might provide alternative views have been banned or burned. Almost every week there's a classmate or at least schoolmate or maybe a neighbour missing because the parents had been Jews, communist sympathisers or because of any other made up accusation. Your cousin was taken away and "euthanised" because he suffered from a disability.
What would you do? Would you speak up and say no? No, you would tag along, keep your head down and participate as little as possible but enough so you don't draw attention and you bloody well hope they don't stick you into a tank and send you into the war. Remember, you are only 14.

Now if he was ten years older, had joined in the late twenties when it was set up, gone up through the ranks and then had a military career, you could have an argument.

Comments

[ulfilias.livejournal.com]

Is this public ??? Do you mind it being posted about ??? FWIW I fully agree.

[karohemd.livejournal.com]

Yes, this is public for this reason, feel free to link to it.

[edwards.livejournal.com]

Don't worry. Most people outside of reactionary "ew, establishment figure" internet commentators are fully aware of the context Ratzinger's "membership" of the organisation should be viewed in.

Whether you like the church, the pope or not, there's no point trying to make an argument without factual info.

Doesn't help that he looks like Palpatine from Star Wars though...

[pmoodie.livejournal.com]

Yup, it's pointless to hold that particular part of his past against him. But the old "Nazi" card is an easy one to play for people who don't want to look into things too deeply.

[thedinster.livejournal.com]

I completely understand. Even though Soviet times were nowhere near as scary as Nazi times, my parents have grown up being brainwashed with propaganda, some people's parents had been locked away in jail for telling political jokes in Stalin times and everyone was forced into Communist youth groups and later the army... and had to swear oaths to the party in every day life. Plus, if your family weren't party members, you'd get disadvantaged in life and wouldn't even get proper medical care.

But on the plus side, both my mum and my dad know how to assemble, disassemble and use a Kalashnikov :p

[karohemd.livejournal.com]

When one of those internet commentators is Ben Goldacre, I have my doubts. :/ To read it on his page (http://bengoldacre.posterous.com/nazi-youth-pope-aligns-atheists-with-nazis-bi) was what really set me off.

*nods*

Haha. That sort of thing I don't have a problem with.

[karohemd.livejournal.com]

My problem is that it's a sweeping generalisation of all Germans.

[bateleur.livejournal.com]

I didn't actually know it was compulsory - thanks for the info!

[maviscruet.livejournal.com]

I've never thought his membership of the hitler youth was an issue.

That said - compairing Athiest to Nazi's was - well stupid at best.

[xambrius.livejournal.com]

I know how to use and maintain an AK (not that those wonderful rugged workhorses need much in the way of maintenance). I own one. :)

--
Tim Harris
The Seeker
Time Lord

[karohemd.livejournal.com]

It's rather sad how widespread this ignorance is. When even Ben Goldacre (who I consider one of the best informed and least insane "aggressive secularists") mentioned it last night, I lost my rag at him. :/
The Hitler Youth wasn't the Boy Scouts for the Nazi elite but a cunning way to build the army of the future. If WWII had gone on for another year or two, the majority of soldiers would have been teenagers...

[karohemd.livejournal.com]

It's being brought up again and again and when even intellectuals like Ben Goldacre do it, I can't sit still anymore.

Absolutely. As I said, I have no love for the pope.

[thedinster.livejournal.com]

Really? Awesome! Where did you buy it?

[riksowden.livejournal.com]

Some of the Hitler Youth were posted to defend Berlin, mostly on AA and mobile artillery platforms; as you say it wasn't like the Boy Scouts in the UK (which did get involved with the war effort but, despite being founded by a military man and based on military lines, only on non military uses - working with volunteer fire brigade, air raid shelters and so on).

I'm startled by how little the difference is understood; similarly how little is understood of East Germany/USSR states during the Cold War.

[sea-cucumber.livejournal.com]

I remember posting something like this when he was first elected!

[xambrius.livejournal.com]

From Wrightway Pharmacy in Fort Mill, SC. Jim Wright, the pharmacist, was also a licensed arms dealer. The wall behind the counter was covered with semi-auto civilian versions of military rifles (M-16s, AK-47s, FN FALs, etc). I had been making payments on an AKM-47S in 1988, but my parents surprised me by paying the remaining balance and giving it to me for Christmas that year. :)

--
Tim Harris
The Seeker
Time Lord

[thedinster.livejournal.com]

Awesome! You are prepared for the apocalypse!

[karohemd.livejournal.com]

*nods* they were deployed in a specific tank division, too.
What the British Boy Scouts did was more like community service and that's absolutely fine.

That's slightly more understandable as info from the other side of the Iron Curtain was harder to come by.

[riksowden.livejournal.com]

I'd forgotten about the tanks, which is my bad! I seem to recall that many of the final defenders of Berlin were 17-19, poorly (if at all) trained and armed - but it's not really my area of expertise.

[mr-malk.livejournal.com]

With you completely. I'm not the greatest fan of the Pope or the RC Church in general, but that sort of thoughtless cheap-shot helps no one. Sad that it does seem to be "Canard du jour" (as it were) in a few places.

[xambrius.livejournal.com]

The amusing part is that rounds for it are very cheap (about 17 pence in UK terms).

--
Tim Harris
The Seeker
Time Lord

[whiskeylover.livejournal.com]

I fully agree with the objection to the criticism of the Pope for his Hitler Youth past (What was that SUN headline on his election? "From Hitler Youth to Papa Ratzi"...).

Unlike many others, he even deserted the Hitler Youth when he had the chance- not without danger in itself.


I also disagree with the general (and generally uninformed) attacks on the Pope at the moment. For example he did not say that all atheists were Nazis, he pointed out the horrors that occurred when a tyrannical regime tried to exclude the concept of God from society. While that was clearly not the root cause of the horrors of Nazi atrocities, creating a society where there is no concept of any higher being to answer to does not necessarily help. While one might agree or disagree with that view, I think it is a bit of a stretch to construe it as an insult to all atheists.

As for the child abuse, there does not appear to be any foundation to claims that the Pope was actively involved even in the hushing up of any problems. Admittedly he did order investigations into allegations rather than immediately coming down in judgment on some of the accused, but he did push for the immediate suspension of the priests involved, while investigating further (in at least one case at a point when the police had already dropped a case).

One may disagree with the Pope's views on abortion and contraception, but the frenzied attempts to portray him as the antichrist really get on my nerves.

[karohemd.livejournal.com]

So did I. One would have thought people had learned by now.

[thedinster.livejournal.com]

....SRSLY?

[xambrius.livejournal.com]

YA RLY! :) For years, I could get four rounds for one US dollar and 4 cents sales tax. Prices might and probably have changed, but I know that from 1988 up through about 2005, I could get 100 rounds for 26 US dollars, and that was the standard for an afternoon of shooting.

--
Tim Harris
The Seeker
Time Lord