Huh?

[karohemd]

Artists 'must benefit from touts'

No, no, NO.
Michael Eavis has it right, touts need to be banned. And with touts I mean people/companies who buy large amounts of tickets for prestigious events with the sole purpose of selling them on at huge profit.
Private individuals should be allowed to sell a ticket if they can't attend the show but again, not for (ridiculous) profit. It would be easy to implement a rule on ebay that the starting price needs to be the official sale price. If they then get a nice profit out of it, fine but putting up tickets for a multiple of its actual value should be banned.

It won't be easy to implement that distinction but not doing anything about touts isn't the way to do it. Grrrr.

There've always been touts at gigs but the internet has exacerbated the practice. Take as an example the last Springsteen gig I went to, there were quite a few empty seats (I reckon at least 150, if not more) in the allegedly sold out venue. Those can't just have been people who suddenly got sick or didn't make it for whatever reason. Especially the "box" circle at the O2 was rather empty looking. Curiously, the real-life touts in the tube station were only looking for tickets themselves.

Comments

[pmoodie.livejournal.com]

I agree in spirit, but part of me thinks it's a question of supply and demand.

If people are foolish enough to pay ridiculous high prices for tickets, that's their problem. No-one's forcing them to buy the things.

[karohemd.livejournal.com]

The thing is, few do, that's why there are so many empty seats. I definitely have heard various stories of shows that were sold out within minutes and then had many empty seats.
It's a vicious circle, because the internet touts can't shift all of their tickets, they need to sell the tickets they do shift at ridiculous prices (3-5x or more of face value).

The system they had for the one-off Led Zep gig was a bit harsh but it worked. They just need to find a way of automating personal registration thing because not everyone lives near the venue or can afford getting there half a day before the gig.

[pmoodie.livejournal.com]

Ah, well that's a problem then. In that case you're right!

[matgb]

Nah, he's sort of right but the solution would make it worse not better, see my rant below (that you nearly got instead).

This may become a post at some point as it's something I feel very strongly about—touts are adapting to demand, deal with it by allowing a true market to develope and you get more events as the true value of tickets becomes apparent.

[feanelwa.livejournal.com]

But only a true market for the super-rich. The effect of allowing all ticket prices to rocket up to the amounts that touts charge for them is that ordinary people can't afford to go to any concerts anymore. It already happened with houses and everybody in the country who doesn't have rich gullible parents is going to be renting shoeboxes until they die.

[matgb]

Temporarily, yes, in part. But partially touts charge inflated prices because they a) know they can get away with it and b) they have scarcity (ie they've the only remaining tickets).

Venues could choose, for example, to put 90% on as a dutch auction (setting the price at the lowest succesful bid) and then have the remaining 10% on the door to be sold at that price. It's just an example.

But medium term (probably 6 months or less), you'd get more gigs, more venues, more events, more Glastonbury's, because rather than trying to choke the price down to make it "affordable" (and failing) you instead get to see how much money there is to be made, and more people are encouraged to put on events (Which will bring the price back down overall).

Anyway, gotta work, more later, probably in a post.

[karohemd.livejournal.com]

Regardless of the "ideal" economics, it is wrong that artists (or, more likely, their labels) should benefit from resales.

[matgb]

Depends on perspective really, there's a "market" rationale for both sides, you can take it that they're giving you a licenced invite to attend their event, and they want a slice of any resale value because that shows they underestimated demand.

Incidentally, I'd not ban resale, but my shceme (the 90/10 idea) should almost certainly destroy most touts, and you could argue that it effectively removes the need for resale. Returned tickets could go onsale at the venue or similar.

[karohemd.livejournal.com]

Returned tickets could go onsale at the venue or similar.
That would be good.

Also, ticketmaster have now introduced a resale thing on their website but I haven't looked at it yet.

[feanelwa.livejournal.com]

I don't want to miss out on getting seats at all the good concerts because other people are stupid enough to pay 5 times the ticket price to a tout!

[matgb]

They're not stupid. They decided that the ticket was more valuable to them than the money, that's a positive decision on their part.

@ Ozzy. Disagree completely. The problem isn't with touting, nor with the internet, it's that tickets are released at too low a value for the demand thus making "touting" profitable. Venues and artists aren't seeing the full demand or value of the tickets, and thus play less events than there is demand for and make less money.

Eavis should put all but a small number of tickets up as a Dutch auction. That would let the market determine the actual value of the tickets, which would be much higher than it actually is set or believed to be.

That would then (and this is the key point) encourage others with land and the ability to put on similar (lesser) festivals, as they'll see the amount of money that has the potential to be made, therefore demand for Glastonbury would fall and the prices would go down as there would be many more festivals available for us to go to.

By attempting to artificially keep prices low, we all suffer. Sell tickets to all events that will sell out in a dutch auction, the end result will be more events as we'll see how much money people are prepared to pay for tickets and the venues and artists will adapt more.

Attempting to ban resales acheives nothing except medium term hurting both artists and fans. IT has an initial appeal, but not once you actually look to the real problem.

[feanelwa.livejournal.com]

But if they didn't keep giving money to the ticket touts they would have to pay less in the first place. And anyway, at the moment anybody who can afford a ticket to such a concert from a ticket tout is probably rich enough to put on their own concert. Certainly this is the problem with Glastonbury now - it is full of the gilded youth who pee in the stream and stamp on people's tents, who are the only ones who can afford the tickets.

[karohemd.livejournal.com]

In theory you're probably correct (let supply and demand regulate the price) but if prices were that high, going to gigs (at least big ones) would be even more of a prerogative of the rich as it already is.
I'm going to fewer gigs than I used to when I lived in Germany (and was a student!) because hardly anyone of note comes to Cambridge and the expense of a travelcard to London in addition to the ticket price and fees make me think twice if I want to spend £40+ for an evening and I'm not exactly poor.

[the-magician.livejournal.com]

I think your plan is great. Tickets on ebay no more than cover price (plus booking fee and credit card interest and postage, and paypal premium ... as I took a loss on the Genesis tickets I bought as people paid me the £60 face value but I'd actually ended up paying closer to £80 each by the time you added all the costs, and one person paid me by PayPal so I ended up with something like £55 for the ticket that had cost me nearly £80)

Oh, and I've often seen touts "asking if you had tickets to sell" as that's not in any way illegal, but if you say "no, in fact I'm looking for a pair" you'd find they often have a pocket full. I tried selling a tout one of my Genesis tickets and he was only buying pairs.

[neophyte-13.livejournal.com]

to be honest artists still make the same amount of money from a ticket whether it's later resold or not...

[karohemd.livejournal.com]

Exactly. Like the example in the article about reselling a car.

[neophyte-13.livejournal.com]

yes, but the point I'm making is that htey aren't losing anything either. I don't care who buys the tickets...

[karohemd.livejournal.com]

*nods*
Actually, I do care, if people who don't even know what the gig is about buy up tickets and by so doing prevent true fans from getting any.

[feanelwa.livejournal.com]

It is absolutely, incredibly annoying. There was an article on the Beeb about this 14 year old kid who made thousands of pounds buying tickets early and selling them for twice the price on eBay, and he had no idea what any of the music even sounded like. He just had no passion for anything but screwing other people over and was screwing over people who felt emotion for things that were actually worthy of it. People like him should be sent into the countryside and made to pick fruit for the rest of us to eat, and he would be ill within minutes from trying to eat all the apples so we couldn't have any, and it would serve him right.

[karohemd.livejournal.com]

An apt punishment but tbh, I wouldn't want to eat those apples...

[sea-cucumber.livejournal.com]

Seeing empty seats at sold out concerts makes me sad, as think of all those disappointed fans who could have gone (having been in the position of 'disappointed fan' many times when I have not managed to get on the internet in time and things have sold out)!

[surje.livejournal.com]

the problem with gig tickets is that (if it's a popular gig) then the supply of the original item is already limited, and it's for a unique one off event not a resaleable item in itself.

i'd compare a gig ticket to a party invitation. the band sends out invitations to their friends (i.e. everybody), and the first ones to reply are allowed to come. (obviously money has to change hands but that's a separate issue). if someone later drops out, they can pass the invitation on to somebody else, but they have to let the host know who it was they invited.

i'd be happy to have to register verifiable details (i.e. passport or drivers license) and to have to receive the tickets to a postal address, and then provide the identification at the door. if i want to pass my tickets to someone else, i would return the tickets, and the other person could then buy if i sent them a unique key identifier, and they then they purchase the ticket, and then i get a credit. I can then sell the credit slip to anyone at face value (kind of like a book token) on ebay if i want.

i see no justfication for anyone bulk buying tickets. if i wanted to buy more than one ticket, i.e. for my immediate family, i.e. maximum of 6, then i wouldn't have a problem in getting a unique key identifer at the point of purchase and then each of the other people supplying their own authentification details later.

[karohemd.livejournal.com]

I really like your proposal.

[uglybuffy.livejournal.com]

I am in favour of this proposal too except for having to receive tickets to a postal address, as many times I have had a moment of "What!!? X are playing tomorrow/tonight?! I must log on to Ticketline immediately and select pick up with credit card".

[surje.livejournal.com]

you like bands that have tickets available the day before a gig!? i'm lucky to hear about gigs months beforehand, or even hours into the selling when most of the tickets are already gone.

the mighty boosh tickets are sold out a year in advance.

[uglybuffy.livejournal.com]

Yes. Bands like Magik Markers playing in old men bowling clubs in Manchester tend not to sell out! Also picking them up on the night means I don't have to worry about losing the tickets!