karohemd: by LJ user gothindulgence (Balthasar)
[personal profile] karohemd
I wanted to mention this on my holiday blog but forgot and just got reminded of it when I saw this comic.

Quite a few of the Americans on the ship would use "Excuse me!" to apologise instead of "I'm sorry", which I found very strange. I use "excuse me" to either get someone's attention or if I want to get past etc. not for apologising. Despite having been to America and with Americans, thas was the first time I encountered this.
To be honest, if someone stepped on my foot and said "Excuse me", I would say "No, I won't. You better watch it." If they said "I'm sorry", I'd say "Don't worry about it."

Is this usage of "excuse me" common or maybe a regional habit?

Date: 12/2/07 01:35 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] twentypence.livejournal.com
It's just the truncated form of "oh, I'm so sorry, please excuse me".
Quite common in the UK as well.

But these things are open to interpretation... such as your reply of "You better watch it." can be seen as threatening violence.

Date: 12/2/07 01:42 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] karohemd.livejournal.com
Not that I've encountered but fair enough.

I probably wouldn't actually say "better watch it" but I definitely wouldn't react the same way I'd react to "I'm sorry."

Date: 12/2/07 01:46 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] twentypence.livejournal.com
On the French Metro you'll get people saying "pardon" before they push past you...

Date: 12/2/07 01:47 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] professoryaffle.livejournal.com
Its a phrase I will use but generally when I do something like burp or something similar rather than step on someones foot or something similar but IMHO its a valid phrase when your behaviour has been minorly inappropriate as saying you are sorry

Date: 12/2/07 01:43 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kcontheroad.livejournal.com
English speakers in general make enough gaffes that we have several ways of acknowledging it.

"I'm sorry."
"Excuse me."
"Pardon me."
"I beg your pardon"
"My bad." (This is a recent addition I don't care for, but it's gaining currency.)

The Oxford English Dictionary says, "excuse • verb /ikskyooz/
— PHRASES excuse me 1 a polite apology. "

(deleted comment)

Date: 12/2/07 02:14 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] karohemd.livejournal.com
I disagree entirely.

ORIGIN Latin excusare ‘to free from blame’.

So linguistically the difference is the following:
If I say "I'm sorry" (ORIGIN Old English, pained, distressed) I acknowledge if I've done something wrong and if I say "Excuse me" it was the other person's fault?

This usage is simply wrong in my eyes.

Now, where's [livejournal.com profile] vyvyan?

Date: 12/2/07 02:46 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] vyvyan.livejournal.com
I don't think etymology can be used to justify (or criticise) present-day usage. (Also, it's not directly from Latin, but via Old French, so one would need to look to the meaning there to see how it was used when first borrowed into Middle English.) FWIW, the primary (i.e. earliest attested, and still current) meaning of the verb "excuse" given by the OED online is 1. trans. To offer an apology for. a. To attempt to clear (a person) wholly or partially from blame, without denying or justifying his imputed action. Chiefly refl. There is also a later reference to the disputed phrase: Phrase, Excuse me: used parenthetically in conversation as apology for an impropriety in speech, etc., or as a polite way of disputing a statement. Also used as a polite form in addressing a stranger, or in interrupting the speech of another.

So, although I don't think I'd generally say "Excuse me" rather than "Sorry" if I bumped into someone, it wouldn't seem especially strange if someone else said it - it's hardly a huge leap of meaning!

Date: 12/2/07 02:09 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kcontheroad.livejournal.com
Oops. Meant to post the entire link. Here it is:

http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/excuse?view=uk

I agree with those who say that reacting to it differently from "I'm sorry" isn't appropriate.

Date: 12/2/07 02:16 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] karohemd.livejournal.com
I disagree (see reply to your deleted comment). Besides, nobody said that.

Date: 12/2/07 02:28 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kcontheroad.livejournal.com
Sorry about the double post. I deleted it because it was a double post and not because of your comment. I must have deleted it while you were writing. I'm sorry, excuse me, and pardon me, please! ;)

Anyway, what I was commenting on was this "your reply of "You better watch it." can be seen as threatening violence" I thought that threatening violence against some one who was making a polite remark was a bit much.

The Oxford English Dictionary people know more than I can ever hope to about English, so if they're saying it's polite and if in my experience it's polite, I'm not going to take offense if some one says it.

I'll do my best not to say it to you (the above tongue-in-cheek example notwithstanding) but if I make a mistake and do, please don't be offended. I don't mean it to be offensive.

I just looked in my e-mails to see your comment to the post I deleted, but I candn't find it. I wanted to post it here. I just see the two comments that still show. EEP! I really am sorry. I'm making a muck of things here.

Date: 12/2/07 02:39 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] karohemd.livejournal.com
OK, the "better watch it" wasn't particularly well phrased as I wouldn't want to imply violence. Something like "You might want to watch where you're going" would be more appropriate but you get the idea.

Oh, I know perfectly well they meant it as an apology but to me (and others, including English native speakers), it sounds off.

I think when you reply to a deleted comment you won't get the notification as the reference is missing. I probably hit Send just before you deleted it because otherwise I would have received the "can't reply to non-existing comment" error.

Date: 12/2/07 03:44 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] motodraconis.livejournal.com
I think it's contextural in English.

"Excuse me" before an event is a request.
"Excuse me" after an event seems confrontational.

Eg. Trying to squeeze past someone you might say "excuse me."
If you bumped into someone in the act of squeezing past, and said "excuse me" it's almost accusatory.

Perhaps this is because "excuse me" after an event can be used in a mocking or sneering way in England... eg.

You've just had a go at someone for being rude or something.. they reply.
"Well excuse me for breathing!"

After an event excuse me's are often used to placate in a mocking way, to feign being sorry while subtly hinting that you're not sorry at all. A swooping tone of voice and inflection is also present.

Thus I'd say that while it may be common parlance in the US, using "excuse me" instead of "sorry" in England can be fraught. It has undertones of irony and sarcasm.
"Excuse me" before an event/before you're done something doesn't have this undercurrent.

Date: 12/2/07 03:58 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] karohemd.livejournal.com
That's exactly how I'm feeling about it.

Date: 12/2/07 04:36 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kcontheroad.livejournal.com
That depends on the tone. I think it was Steve Martin who often did the "Well excuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuse me!" and made it clear that he didn't think he had done anything wrong. You can do the same with "I'm sorry" or "Pardon me" or any of the others.

I think that if some one trods on your foot and says "excuse me!" and he or she looks or sounds apologetic, I would assume the speaker isn't trying to be rude and should be given the benefit of the doubt. Responding snarkily doesn't really make anything better, does it?

Date: 13/2/07 01:33 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] eryx-uk.livejournal.com
I'm guilty of saying "my bad." But then I have a lot of American friends and contacts, and it's rubbed off on me.

Date: 12/2/07 01:43 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mazzarc.livejournal.com
I'm guessing regional as I didn't experience it on any of my trips to the states... tho the Georgians have a wierd habbit of children addressing adults by Title and first name. So I was Miss Marion a lot.

Date: 12/2/07 01:46 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] motodraconis.livejournal.com
The "excuse me" instead of "sorry" gets me too. Almost as if it's pushing responsibility for someone else's clumsiness or the like onto me.

Another thing that grates on me is the way (young) Aussies inflect their speech. As if everything was a question? Even though it's a statement? I start to find it really annoying? After a while? I know they don't mean to offend? But even so? It's a bit confusing? And misleading? Like you're being interrogated? You find it keeps catching you out?

"It's a nice day?"
"I dunno, is it???"
"I only said, it's a nice day?"
"I dunno, is it a nice day???"

Etc.

Date: 12/2/07 01:50 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] karohemd.livejournal.com
Exactly my interpretation.

I don't know enough Aussies to verify that but I've heard many Americans inflect their sentences like that and it's coming over here, too. Just like, like, the horrible usage of "like". :o/

Date: 12/2/07 02:14 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kcontheroad.livejournal.com
Oooh, I can't stand that either and my DAUGHTER does it. Both the questions and the 'like.' GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

Date: 12/2/07 03:01 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] astatine210.livejournal.com
Cue the inevitable "Why do Australians go up at the end of a sentence?" joke.

Date: 12/2/07 01:46 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] raggedhalo.livejournal.com
I've encountered that too. I guess it's an accurate use of the term, but it makes no sense in context to most (British) English-speakers.

Its not regional...

Date: 12/2/07 01:58 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] will-sample.livejournal.com
...you'll find it in common usage anywhere in between the coasts (Real America).

Re: Its not regional...

Date: 12/2/07 04:18 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] feanelwa.livejournal.com
The middle region of the North part, then :)

Re: Its not regional...

Date: 12/2/07 04:19 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] will-sample.livejournal.com
...no. It's ubiquitous in the South, the Midwest, the Rust Belt, the Rockies, and the Desert SW.

Re: Its not regional...

Date: 12/2/07 04:21 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] feanelwa.livejournal.com
Yes - the country that occupies the middle of North America.

Date: 12/2/07 04:21 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] feanelwa.livejournal.com
I think it is common, and meant exactly the same as "I'm sorry". I'm sure there are plenty of examples where users of English English say things that are no longer what they mean. Oh - like 'quite'. Some people take it to mean 'a bit', others take it to mean 'completely', and interpreted the other way from which it was meant it can be taken as offensive when it really wasn't meant that way.

Date: 12/2/07 04:31 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] whethergal.livejournal.com
It's pretty common.

Think of it as asking to be excused for such behavior, rather than the other.

It's sort of a "sorry" in America, yes. Usually I say I'm sorry, but I've used the "excuse me" before.

Date: 12/2/07 09:27 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] pinkapplejam.livejournal.com
It's better than "scyuze"/"'Scuse" abbreviation oft used by teh yoof, which implies carelessness in attitude. But AFAIK this isn't regional and wouldn't warrant a response such as the one you have given in your original entry, it would be seen as very arsey. ;)

Surely if someone says "Oh 'excuse me!" and looking at you apologetically it would imply the same as "I'm sorry"? I've been one for saying "sorry" myself as opposed to "excuse me" but both are decent for apologising for clumsy behaviour. After all we all make mistakes and someone may just be in a world of their own with whatever badness is happening, and would not mean at all to offend you by brushing into you. ;D

Cultural differences?

Date: 12/2/07 09:33 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] karohemd.livejournal.com
OK, my original example is a bit OTT and I'd never say something like that.

Generally, the tone makes clear how it's intended and I didn't mind much as I knew how they meant it (I was just confused) but there was one occasion of a lady barging into me and saying "excuse me" in a hardly apologetic tone that implied she would shoulder me again if I didn't step aside. *That* I found unacceptable.

Date: 12/2/07 09:52 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] pinkapplejam.livejournal.com
Oh completely!! In the context of being delivered by them in an arsey manner, it's almost sarcastic!!

Date: 13/2/07 12:32 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] susanofstohelit.livejournal.com
I usually use it along the lines of "oh, excuse me" in a tone of surprise. part of it may be that pardon me isn't really in the vocabulary here, so most it's generally a choice between sorry and excuse me.

Date: 13/2/07 12:38 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] greebotrill.livejournal.com
When I'm sorry, I say I'm sorry. When I'm trying to get through somewhere, I generally say "Pardon me" or "Excuse me" if the first doesn't work. I'm not sure where "excuse me" is common but it's not used where I'm from nor by anyone I know well.

Date: 13/2/07 01:05 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] karohemd.livejournal.com
That's how I understand it, too but as we've seen there seem to be differences.
Thanks!

Date: 13/2/07 12:40 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] greebotrill.livejournal.com
One further thing. The only time I'd use something like Excuse me is usually in context wherein the listener can understand what I'm saying, such as "Oh my, please excuse me, I didn't mean to step on your foot." But I can't think of a time where just excuse me is acceptable in my head that I'd use it.

Date: 13/2/07 01:36 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] eryx-uk.livejournal.com
When I have people do the who "excuse me" thing, I stump them by asking "Why, what have you done?" Seems to work most of the time.

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