How things change

[karohemd]

This article describes the "first true scientist", an islamic scholar who lived in AD 965. Then and for many centuries later, the Islamic world was known for its scholars and scientists (as well as fanciful commodities). These days, it's mainly war, religious fanatics and oil. Shame, really.

Good programme to watch but I'll miss it as I'll be RPGing. Thank the BBC for iplayer. :o)

Comments

[ebb.livejournal.com]

Erm, ok. Lots of positives and negatives come out of different countries globally on a regular basis. The US has its fair share in the war and fanatics in general claim, we're not so brilliant either... etc etc.

[karohemd.livejournal.com]

Oh, entirely.
However, if I asked you the first thing that comes to your mind when Iraq is mentioned, what would you say? Most likely not brilliant scientists or Mesopotamian culture.

[mr-malk.livejournal.com]

Yes, of course what really brought the Golden Age of Middle-Eastern civilisation to a crashing halt was the Crusades. Not to say Islamic societies were perfect then either, but they were generally rather more advanced and enlightened than most of Christendom. Islam actually acted as a significant moderating force on a lot of the cultures in which it had been adopted, and they had taught respect for followers of other Abrahamic religions (Judaism and Christianity) as "peoples of the book".

The Crusades pretty much brought that to a grinding halt, although in fairness to the crusders, there is a very good chance that Ghengis Khan and his lads would have torn through the Middle East in any case, although the long-lasting negative effects of the Mameluke revolt would almost certainly not have been as severe, and certainly wouldn't have engendered the same animosity between the Islamic World and the West as in fact happened.

In case you wondered.

[karohemd.livejournal.com]

*nods*

[davegodfrey.livejournal.com]

The various invasions and civil wars that cropped up towards the end of the rule of the Abassid Caliphs also had an effect too. Instead of using appropriate bits of Islamic dogma to encourage science and philosophy they did what cultures do when attacked and entrenched themselves, stifling research and new ideas.

Which is pretty much what happened at the end of the Roman empire too. Apart from a few people like the Venerable Bede, it was all over until things like the Crusades, Marco Polo and so on started showing people what the rest of the world knew and bringing the work of the Arab, Hindu and Greek civilisations back to Europe.

[kaberett.livejournal.com]

Ooh, thank you. Really should research this stuff myself, I know...

[mr-malk.livejournal.com]

My pleasure. I have a bit of a thing for Crusade history. I read once that someone said it was too early to tell what the long term legacy of the French Revolution would be. I have always held that this is doubly true of the Crusades. The way they continue to effect day to day life and international diplomacy almost a thousand years later is quite staggering.

Another interesting tidbit - only tangentially related - is that the Knights Templar (favoured as they are by pseudo-mystical conspiracy theorists everywhere as guardians of religious and mystic secrets) had a widespread reputation at the time for arrogance, stupidity and ignorance; especially compared with their rivals the Knights Hospitaller...

[mr-malk.livejournal.com]

That's true, but perhaps a slightly unfair question, as the name "Iraq" has only been common currency since about the 1920s, and so associations with it are not likely to predate British rule of the region when it was taken over from the Ottoman Empire.*

If you asked what the first thing to come to mind when Baghdad is mentioned, it might well be something from 1001 Nights.

*Not, in all honesty, that most people would go back before Saddam Hussein, but the point stands: Iraq is a recent** name that is not directly connected in most peoples' minds with Mesopotamia or the Fertile Crescent.

** Apparently it is derived from an Arabic name that has been in use for a couple of thousand year, but not in these parts!

[karohemd.livejournal.com]

Gah, you're nitpicking but you're obviously right. I didn't mean the political state of Iraq as it is now but the area. Borders, names and governments have been changing throughout history pretty much everywhere in the world.

[mr-malk.livejournal.com]

Actually, uncharacteristically for me perhaps, that wasn't intended as pedantry. Name association is pretty important in this context, and Iraq (which in its brief history has one of the bloodiest national associations I can think of offhand) compared to Mesopotamia is a pretty clear example of that. The associations conjured by the names Istanbul and Constantinople are probably just as contrasting.

If you asked what people associate with "the area now known as Iraq", they would probably think more carefully about what used to be there, even if (I suspect), most people, certainly in Britain (I won't presume to speak for the rest of Europe), would struggle to tell you.